F-250 Enthusiasts: Further Reports on Ford Auto Transmission Problems....

Six speed Alison looking better every day :-)

Bob

Hi Steve,
The "new Effies" you speek of .... are you referring to the brand new "Flash as Micheal Jackson" edition or the last of the work horse (2001 - 2006). Mine is fitted with 2 large oil coolers. Is that enough to tow a 20fter?
Regards
Jim

Steve,

When you talk about the 4R100 transmission in the newer F250's are you refering to the transmission on the smaller engines that are in the American F250's that came into production in 2003 after the 7.3 was discontinued or are talking about the transmission that is used on our Aussie F250's up until now.

I thought the model of transmission that we had was a E4OD but I stand corrected if you can advise.

I was thinking of going the way of putting Castrol Transmax Z in the transmission to protect the box a bit more but at $285 for 20 litres would this extend the service intervals from manufacturers recommendations and if so it would probably void warranty if changes were not completed when recommended.

Alternative is Dextron II at about $65 for 20 litres but again the above would come into it. So if you put these high quality synthetic oils in you would not want to be dropping the fluid all the time as cost would prohibit.

I suppose if the vehicle is out of warranty then you can change it when you like and maybe double or triple the intervals for change depending on work load on the transmission.

What are your recommendations on:-
Standard transmission cooler with mineral oils and factory changes
Standard transmission cooler with synthetic oils and prolonged changes
Extra transmission cooler fitted with mineral oils and factory changes
Extra transmission cooler with synthetic oils and prolonged changes

Obviously the last one would be the best but it all comes back to the most cost efficient and to work load. It would depend on how often you tow the B/T and under what conditions also.

Iv'e read on previous posts that the standard transmission cooler was adequate is that still the most common view.

Cheers

Stewart - Black Cobra
Just like the cobra I will twist and wind all over the great Oz land

Just for everyones information: GM doesn't have to pay any "fee" for the use of the Allison name. The last time GM paid anything related to Allison was in 1929 when they bougth the company.............Allison is 100% owned by GM.
Cheers

AussieDMAX is correct.
Allison is probably the most respected and admired transmission in the market today and they are owned by GM.

Most GMC and Silverado users in The Diesel place forum change to full synthetics for their Allison at their 1st oil change or earlier...

You can blow any transmission up with too much power/torque, but under normal use and towing the Allison has few problems and has been designed to accommodate anything the standard GM product can throw at it....

To see the history of the Allison name and its association with GM...GO here

Site Link

fosss

Agree Steve your advice is sound and applies to all trannies. I just changed my Dexron III for Transynd (synthetic made by Castrol in cooperation with Allison); this stuff is expensive; hope it's worth the money..........I haven't towed the van yet with the synthetic in the Allison; although my ATF temps never exceeded 95 C when towing, it will be interesting to see whether the synthetic keeps it even lower. We will be heading up North next week (might drop in at the factory; time for me to check out Tracy's Dodge!).
Cheers

Hi Steve
Here is a pic of the little "F" truck I nearly bought before I found the big Chevy.

Hey Ranger
If I get one them there F650's can you fit them there wheels and tyres
to my BT to keep the towing leval right

scott

The durability of automatic transmissions operating under heavy loads or in duty cycles at the limit of their design capability has always been a challenge for drivers to accept there are some things that must be done to provide a trouble free life.
The problem is that there is not much in the way of published guidelines on what to look for and how to respond to the warning signs.
For those who may be interested I may be able to provide some guidance here that you could find useful.
First up a view of the Ford electronic overdrive transmissions, of which the E4OD and the newer 4R100 variants are topical. These are strong well designed transmissions with many thousands in service throughout the world including severe service in heavy duty towing and auto racing applications albeit in many of those severe duties there has been some design modifications carried out to enable the performance durability.
These transmissions have relatively lower control and apply pressure at idle or low speeds and can also at times be prone to “shift flair” where the clutch lockup is delayed generating very high temperatures in the clutch pack which both transfers to the transmission fluid and also more rapidly degrades the fluid. In the American market there are devices such as Torque Lockers [for the E4OD] that keep the torque converter locked down to a preset speed after which it unlocks to prevent stalling, Shift point change modules, “sport” style valving to boost control pressure rise and eliminate shift flair[4R100] etc etc, suffice to say the American market is awash with ideas to “fix” what already is a good unit.
But without going to these extremes there are some things you can do with a little bit of knowledge about the operating limits matched with your driving conditions, that will give you comfort/peace of mind that the transmission is going to keep you moving.
Looking at operating temperatures, there are a couple of things here.
A stable bulk oil running temperature is a must. If the temperature rises on uphill or generally hilly running or in headwinds then the transmission oil cooling system needs to be boosted.
Bulk oil temperatures less than 110 to 120 celsius should be targeted.
Above this range there is a real impact on oil oxidation [degradation due to heat] and above 140 celsius there is a doubling of the rate of oxidation for every 10 degree rise in temperature. So the message here is get the oil temperature stable and keep it below 120 degrees.
Now looking at mineral oil based transmission fluids versus synthetics. We’ll use the Castrol products as an example. The mineral oil GM Dexron brand is TQ Dexron 3, and the synthetic product suitable for the Dexron specification is Transmax Z. Some of you have chosen to use Castrol Transynd, similar comments as for Transmax Z apply.
We’ve already talked about bulk oil temperatures, however looking inside the transmission at some of the working areas there are some much higher temperatures generated.
In the clutch pack, the friction plates that make up the clutch are designed to operate within a defined temperature range, usually between 300 and 400 degrees. These clutches are oil flooded and the transmission fluid is used to dissipate the heat generated and therefore control the temperature of the clutch operation, so the transmission fluid has to withstand temperatures much higher than you see in the transmission sump. Elsewhere in the transmission the oil is undergoing much higher temperatures for example in the planetary gear set as gear teeth contact one another [momentary 600 celsius] , and in the torque converter.
It is in these conditions that the mineral oil versus synthetic fluids performance must be compared.
Firstly the effect of heat on the base fluid. The temperature at which mineral oil begins to oxidise is about 140 C, while synthetic fluids of the type used to formulate Transmax Z don’t begin to oxidise until well into the 200’s. So the synthetic is more stable until much higher temperatures are reached.
Next, the rate of the oxidation or degradation is much slower in synthetics, but antioxidants can be added to both mineral oils and synthetics to slow the rate down and thereby prolong the fluids life. Suffice to say the synthetic has a head start here.

Looking at the effect of heat on the viscosity of these transmission fluids shows very little difference between them, they both have similar Viscosity Indexes. They therefore both perform very efficiently as hydraulic fluids.
However the effect of pressure on the fluids shows a different picture. Under the extreme pressures encountered during gear tooth contact the synthetic has a higher viscosity than the mineral oil. The synthetic has a higher pressure-viscosity coefficient. What this means is the synthetics viscosity rises much faster under the high pressure of approaching metal contact this providing a thicker cushion of lubricating oil. It is this property that gives rise to the claim that the synthetics run cooler than mineral oil. They are simply able to keep the metal parts separated for longer thus reducing the time for friction induced heat build-up. With the appropriately calibrated temperature gauge you can see up to 10 degrees difference in transmission bulk oil temperatures. This is the result of the gear set being some 50 degrees cooler in operation on the synthetic.

So considering these differences, there is a real incentive to use synthetic transmission fluids as they are significantly more durable than mineral oils and in turn impart better durability to the transmission.
So to the question of oil drain interval.
My view is this….If the manufacturers recommendation is 40,000 km under normal service and you load up the vehicle for long distances by towing a load nearing its GCM, then you must halve the drain interval to ensure transmission durability.
If you use products like Transmax Z, and maintain the cooling regime as described you will see a return to the normal oil drain service interval and still retain transmission durability.
If you want to extend the drain interval, I recommend you have the transmission fluid tested every 20,000 km using an oil analysis system. These can be purchased from Castrol in kits that have the sample sent to an Analytical Laboratory with the results returned within the week advising on the condition of the oil and its suitability for further service.
If you don’t want to have the oil analysis done think about the cost of synthetics and drain interval in this way.
Let us assume the synthetic oil and transmission service costs $800. You travel 30,000 km each year and have the service carried out each year. It would take 10 years of servicing before you reached the cost of properly rebuilding a failed transmission.
After 10 years [and 300,000km] you could take the transmission out and replace it with a new one, of course you might also just get a new truck too!!!
Of course if you have a Toyota or Chev, or Hummer or anything else with an auto transmission these comments are equally applicable, for there are many stories of transmission failures to be told with these units when they are loaded to their limit and driven beyond it.

G’day LR

I am retired now but spent more than 40 years in Product Design and Development and Technical Services within the industry, and have had the opportunity to instrument and test new design transmissions and transmission fluids here and in Europe and the USA both on transmission dynamometers and in field durability………but it never does leave you and am happy to help where I can.

The components [BD brand] in the kits you are referring to with the “Enforcer” certainly have a reputation for fixing problems with auto racing and snow plough operations in US. Don’t know of anyone in Australia using them though.
What you have with these kits is not so much a rebuild as a re-design of the transmission and as such it’s important to ensure the components, which are remaining, have sufficient performance capability.
You really do need to replace the input & output shafts plus a complete new bearing set.

By going this route you are really upgrading the transmission so it adds an increased level of performance protection, so if the money were available it would be the preferred route.

I am sure you’re aware of this but please bear in mind that by increasing the clutch pack plates count you do increase the heat generation in the system, and therefore the thermal degradation load on the clutch plates, the friction modifier and the anti-wear chemistry in the transmission fluid. So it follows that the oil cooler system has to be upgraded and the use of synthetic transmission fluid is now mandated.

For gauges, coolers and associated requirements I would contact
Rocket Industries
40 Huntingwood Drive
Huntingwood N.S.W
Australia 2148

Tel: (02) 8825-1900
Fax: (02) 8825-1911

Rocket sells the Autometer-Autogauge range [good gauge scale discrimination] also the stacked plate oil coolers, plus a range of other components.

An alternate international gauge supplier is Greengauges :
Greengauges.com Ltd
Customer Service Department
Caerbont
Abercrave
Swansea

SA9 1SH
United Kingdom
Tel +44 1639 732208
Fax +44 1639 732201