IMPORTANT Electrical Engineering NECESSARY-Inverter Retrofit Running All Outlets

Submitted: Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 at 18:26
ThreadID: 123205 Views:4650 Replies:3 FollowUps:6
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Fellow Boggers, Terry and Patti G**** wrote to me regard regrets that had not put in an inverter, and wanting to add one now with an Electrician in their area… Fine. Yes it would have been better to have our Automatic Switching built into the Inverter, but a rough variation can be done per below. But it is fraught with Pitfalls, and over the weekend I was fretting about it as it could be DISASTROUS if someone were to do it wrong…. I was worrying a little about it, and was afraid someone else could get hurt doing it wrong, so I am up at 6 AM this Sunday morning trying to get this out… Here is the email and the important features to take into account when doing this retrofit:

The Email to me at Bushtracker:
Steve,when we purchased our van 4/06 we should have put in an inverter as we have only one 12v plug could you see any problems if we arranged for an electrician to hook up our ALESSI pure sinewave inverter to utilise the 240 plugs with a switch from 240v to 12v Terry Giles your info on the owners site is great

My response:
Thank you for the positive feedback, I am trying to be of a help on the BOG…………….

As to your Inverter, yes you can put in a large Rotary Switch to turn all the outlets over from Mains Power to Inverter. It is a bit crude of a way to do it, and you will not have the Automatic Switching, but that is a luxury anyway… The only problem, and talk to your Electrician as there is a number of ways to solve this, but here is the problem: You will need to be very careful you do not have your battery charger on, plugged into a 240v power source, and run the other outlets off the inverter by accident. Any spikes coming through the Mains or Generator power to your battery charger, are magnified by the inverter and it kills inverters.

First of all the battery charger circuit will have to be isolated anyway, to only a 240 Mains outside power source, so the battery charger is not running on the inverter power when you switch over… But then, since the battery charger will only be on when on 240v, always left on so it is automatic, so when you plug in it comes on….. There lies the problem. When you are plugged in if you forget and the Inverter is left on, you will have both running. The inverter will be powering up your outlets AND the battery charger will be on charging the batteries. This can damage the inverter when spikes come through the battery charger, as spikes are magnified by the inverter in the 240 volt conversion from 12 volt, and it damages the inverter circuits…

Textbook Electrical Engineering might say the batteries are a surge or spike absorbing protector in this case like a spike suppressor, as they operate just like a giant Capacitor….. Correct in theory, but we have seen many a burnt out inverter, as they forgot to manually turn over the inverter to 240 mains power when they plugged into a dodgey power source like SWER Outback power line… SWER has surges and spikes as people downstream turn on and off pumps and larger equipment.. So maybe you should put in a noticeable red Pilot light when the inverter is on? Or it is a complex Rotary switch wiring job for your Electrician… And he will have to add an additional RCD safety device as the power leg to the charger will have to be taken off before the existing RCD that protects the other Outlets... Which ever solution the Electrician does, make sure he knows and understands this problem….

Summary: Boggers to be: Iif you are in two minds about an Inverter, and think you might want one for the convenience of quick preparation of meals or precooked batches on the road with a microwave, or the quick cuppa to brighten you up when you are running late in 45 seconds with a travel mug bunged into the microwave instead of the 20 minute stop…. If you think you might want one, get us to pre-wire the van for future inverter…

Existing Bogger with new or pre-loved Bushtrackers thinking of adding an inverter: Be Careful, to understand the two problems above. First the issue of isolating the Battery Charger so the Inverter does not run it as that is a resulting power loss, not charge in the closed loop… And secondly, the circuit taken off for the Battery Charger could be done with a Rotary Switch on the leg before the existing Circuit Breakers, so the RCD (Residual Current Device safety feature like the International GFI Ground Fault Interrupter) would not be in the loop… And additional RCD needs to be added for the Isolated Charger. The RCD function is to trip the circuit like a circuit breaker and shut the power off, any time it detects power going to ground, as in a short circuit from defective wiring in an appliance. In theory this protects you from being electrocuted, as any momentary power to ground within the appliance or circuit, or even your body, should trip the RCD.

Friends, it is a lot of Technical mucking around to add this as a retrofit, and do it right… Make sure you have a Licensed Electrician do it for you… And above all, make sure he understands the two points above and compensates for them, with how he does this. Please.

It is early Sunday morning, and I had a little wine last night, I think the above is correct with no typos, but I will review it on Monday and make any revisions or notes should I find I have left out something. But I think the two problems above are the primary issues of SAFETY that I want to warn you about, and I think I have communicated them well enough that if you print this off and your Electrician studies it a few times, he will get the idea and compensate for it… BE CAREFUL…

Regards, ………….Ranger out Scouting the trail…..

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Reply By: NIK `N` OFF - Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 at 21:36

Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 at 21:36
Hi Steve,

I was thinking KISS principle, can you tell me if this would work please.

I was thinking of either using ONE of the power points of a DPP fitting and simply wiring the back of it to a 240v 3 pin plug, that plug goes into my 300w invertor and the cables from the invertor to the batteries. Basically all i am doing is hiding the invertor under a lounge seat and extending the plug to an accessible place. If i cant use one socket on a DPP then i would have a single dedicated socket instead.

I cant see it being any different than what i do now, with me connecting the invertor to the batteries and plugging in an appliance to it. The only use i have ever have for an invertor is to charge up the laptop batteries.

Cheers
Mick
AnswerID: 570233

Follow Up By: dazmit - Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 05:25

Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 05:25
Hi Mick

Generally a double power point uses one set of supply terminals which feed both outlets and therefore cannot be isolated. Easiest way for your desribed setup is to have 1 (or 2 if needed) dedicated power points fed from the inverter IMO.

Cheers

Darryl
Brisbane
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FollowupID: 846951

Follow Up By: Bushtracker - Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 17:55

Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 17:55
Sorry Mick,

While in priciple it could be made to work, the way you describe it, it would be illegal.

These are single throw, double pole, specialized outlets at about 6 times the cost of normal household outlets. Also, they are single feed, internally linked, and as Dazmit says above you cannot readily isolate one. Would suggest you have a specialized outlet wired in direct to your inverter, the proper way by a Licensed Electrician.

Regards, Ranger....
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FollowupID: 846952

Follow Up By: NIK `N` OFF - Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 20:19

Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 20:19
Ok, thanks Darryl & Steve for clearing that up, will do as you both suggest.

Cheers
Mick.
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FollowupID: 846953

Reply By: Noosa Fox - Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 at 22:56

Sunday, Jan 14, 2007 at 22:56
Steve,

I don't know if the above includes isolating the power going back to the 240 inlet plug when Inverter is running, but that is important also.

Wouldn't it be a much easier and safer option to install the Inverter so that it ONLY powers new 240 volt power points with cabling running via electrical conduit under the floor and up through cupboards or fridge enclosure to some new power points? That way you would have 2 seperate 240 volt circuits the same as BTi wire vans.

What is "SWER Outback power line". I understand what you mean by changes at the end of the power line, just cannot work out what SWER means.

Brian
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AnswerID: 570234

Follow Up By: Paul and Barb - Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 04:56

Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 04:56
Single Wire Earth Return.

"SWER lines of any distance often suffer from poor voltage quality as well as other problems caused by things such as lightning strikes, fires, termites and floods,"

I'm not clever, it came from a google search.

Paul.

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FollowupID: 846954

Follow Up By: dazmit - Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 05:23

Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 05:23
Yep as the name implies single wire earth return - simplified - instead of running 2 power lines with one active and one neutral they do the cheaper option and run a single active wire - the neutral is bonded to the ground therefore neutral is returning via ground - obviously with differant ground composition the resistance can vary a lot.

Cheers

Darryl
Brisbane
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FollowupID: 846955

Follow Up By: Bushtracker - Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 18:16

Monday, Jan 15, 2007 at 18:16
Paul and Barb,
And Dazmit,

Both of you are quite correct. A very large portion of the Outback runs on SWER, not that it is a good system, but for basic economic reasons. Some of these Stations could have huge distances in to power them up, and the cost of nomal transmission lines is just prohibitive. Now Pauls Google search is quite correct, but also many Stations will have taps off of one SWER. If you can imagine them turning on and off large pieces of equipment upstream, then further out the SWER there will be be power fluctuations, and could be spikes and voltage drops, etcetera......

Boggers: As to questions by one Noosa Fox, we do not wish to appear to be impolite, so here is an explanation:
We decline to open or answer this persons Postings whenever possible, with a long history of what we feel to be harassment styled emails to Bushtracker. In our opinion he has taken an attitude over the years to attempt a contrary stand to us with little digs at every opportunity; finding any "expert" he can to start a disruptive arguement.. Any answer we would give is subject to arguement and badgering and we find this counterproductive and disruptive to the BOG. This persons seems to need the center stage all the time, and it is harmful to our efforts to be of a help here.

Kind Regards, from a well minded Ranger, trying to be of a help and benefit to the BOG.
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FollowupID: 846956

Reply By: Downunder - Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 09:29

Friday, Jan 19, 2007 at 09:29
I have a small capacity pure sine wave inverter (500W) that i have installed for charging batteries of all kinds or perhaps watching a movie whilst away from 240V supply. I imagine most do something similar.

I have the inverter fixed in the cupboard next to the yacht bed. I use a 240V lead to connect the inverter to the van's 240V inlet connection to "liven up" the installed power points.

The lead is plugged into the inverter 240V outlet, routed under the seating area and into the cupboard behind the fridge where the female plug sits till I need it. When needed I remove the lower vent grille and plug it into the power inlet.

It works great and all you have to do is make sure the battery chargers are switched off.

It's simple and makes use of what already exists.
Bill
AnswerID: 570235

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